stephiny: (me)
[personal profile] stephiny
I read this post yesterday and it immediatly pissed me off. Not because it is wrong (it's not), but because it is missing so much.

"And I am sure that you, Guy Who Is Reading This, is That Guy. You're the guy who would never rape a girl passed out on your bed (who, for that matter, knows that such an act would be rape), or the woman in the village your battalion/troop/whatever is overrunning. You're the guy who wouldn't do such a thing even when his buddies were heckling him, telling him he's a fag and a pussy if he doesn't. Even more, you're the guy who would stop his frat brother from raping that girl, and get her home. You're the guy who would stop his comrades, or at least report them."

The problem I have is the words "That Guy".

In that entire post there is not a single mention of the duty women have to do the exact same thing.

How many times at parties do you see a drunk girl pass out? It's not uncommon. How many times do you see someone make sure that she is okay and ensure that she will be safe? Not nearly often enough.

Where are the guys who should be looking out for her? Where are the girls who should be looking out for her? I've seen way more concerned guys than girls

Even worse is when there are stories of girls waking up naked with no idea what happened. That is horrifying to most people but the stories of guys waking up naked with a candle shoved up their arse, now everyone thinks that is funny.

It shouldn't be.



How about having no actually mean no?

Again we blame men exclusively when the issue isn't nearly as simple. I had a friend who could be a complete idiot at times, and I'm sure there are thousands of other women like her out there. She was cheating on her bloke and to make herself feel less guilty she would say to whoever she was with "no, we really should stop". Stopping was the last thing she wanted to do and some guys would then refuse to continue. She'd spend hours complaining about that the next day.

For that matter, can we please try saying no when we don't want to do something? And FFS stop initiating sex just because you think it is expected!



Walking home alone. It's a bad idea.

Be willing to walk a little out of your way to see your friends home safely. Pretty much what you always hear that men should do. If you are alone then don't take that shortcut through the dark alley or through the woods, stick to well lit streets.



Look out for your friends and even total strangers in the same way you would hope they would look out for you.

Don't go to a party where you don't know anyone and drink too much

Let people know where you are

Don't let your friend go home with this guy/girl she just met without getting an address

It's all things that should be common sense, so why aren't people doing it?



No. Men are not fundamentally entitled to women's bodies. Everyone needs to remember this, both men and women. There is a problem with a society that lets some people not realise this and it is up to everyone, both male and female, to put this right.



Guys, even if one woman said no and then begged you to continue because she didn't mean it, it does not mean you should ever ignore it in the future.

If you see someone in trouble then HELP THEM! If it looks like a girl is getting unwanted attention then at the very least check she is okay.

If you are in a group and someone suggests taking advantage of a woman then don't hesitate to be the first to object. You are not a coward for not wanting to, you are a hero for stopping it. Group mentality is a dangerous thing, object before everyone starts agreeing and the person who suggested it will look like the arsehole he is.

If you need to do more than verbally object, do it. If you need to call the police, do it.

All those things you hear about what a gentleman should do? Those are the things any decent person should do. Walk girls home, wait with them for taxis.

You really need a reason other than it being the right thing to do? Respect. Girls will respect you, guys will respect you and most importantly, you can respect yourself.



As always, saying something like this will probably piss people off. Some people equate saying that women should do something to reduce the risk with believing that women who are sexually assulted in any way somehow deserve it. That is NEVER the case. But I feel these points have to be made

Date: 2009-06-18 09:48 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
I agree with this post. No woman is asking to be raped if she doesn't do those things but common sense dictates that we should all try and keep ourselves as safe as possible. Shouldn't forget that men get raped too and women do rape women, these are smaller cases true but it's not just men.

That post was very aimed at men being the ones in the wrong, and if they rape or if they see someone being raped and do nothing, then yes they are. But you're right in saying women are as bad or have a responsibility.

A lot of women seem to think in the 'they deserve it culture too'. It shouldn't happen but I've seen a woman stumble home, helped by some random and we find out (on the gossip vine) a few days later that she didn't even know the guy but the girl had been so annoying and obnoixiously drunk that her friends had given up bothering! Anything could have happened.

Everyone has to take responsibilty.

Date: 2009-06-18 10:41 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
You may some good points, but I suggest you go back and read through the entire 21 pages of the thread again, because, yes, some of these issues *were* discussed. There were lots of commments and stories about women helping other women out in dangerous situations. There were comments about how women need to be consistent about no meaning no. There were comments about how society as a whole has helped create this problem, and that it is not just a "male" problem.


It's all there. Granted it may be hard to find in all 21 pages, but it was mentioned. However, that was not really the purpose of the orginal post and really the whole thread has become more about letting women who may never have discussed these issues or their own stories have a voice.

Date: 2009-06-19 12:09 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Rape victims, the majority of them being women, aren't responsible for rape.

Rapists, the majority of them being men, are responsible for rape.

Saying that a woman should do more to prevent rape is like saying it is her fault.

Try telling that to a rape victim. I hope you never have to experience such a thing, but if it did happen to you and you did not do everything that you have suggested, then you are essentially saying it is your fault.

Here via your link

Date: 2009-06-19 03:09 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] smallcaps.livejournal.com
I'm not sure why you feel these points have to be made, as they are made all the time. All rape prevention programs are currently aimed at women. We are told all these things. Don't walk alone after dark. Don't dress slutty. Don't drink too much.

The post was aimed at men for a reason. It was written in reaction to the guys who come into rape conversations and exclaim, "But I'm not like that!" Have you ever seen a woman stand up in a conversation about rape and say, "But I would never rape anyone!" Of course not, because it's beside the point. Rape is a problem regardless. Cereta's post challenged guys to stop protesting and either start addressing the problem or leave us to deal with it ourselves.

The post was aimed at men because men are the ones who need to catch up.

This comment (http://cereta.livejournal.com/652008.html?thread=12282600#t12282600) was a particularly pertinent one.

Date: 2009-06-19 04:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lizkayl.livejournal.com
As a woman, I understand your points. They're valid and they are what common sense and society tells us to do.

The point of cereta's post was to remind us that telling women "here's how to avoid being the victim" doesn't really discourage the perpetrators. Both genders do need to work together to prevent rape. But, currently, most of 'rape prevention' is telling women, 'avoid getting raped' by following some guidelines- that sorta work, most the time, against stranger rape- when most rapes are acquaintance rape.

It also was a call for the men who are out there, keeping people safe to stand up and be counted, to be recognized.

Many of the stories illustrate how someone stepped up- showing appropriate behaviors and way to alleviate risk in non-offensive manners. Sadly, some of the stories were about the other guy- the one who didn't get stopped- and they're examples to- of what not to do and what to watch out for.

And don't even get me started on the concept of 'cocktease'. I know far too many women who have done stuff sexually that they were not comfortable with because of this. They hang out with a guy, or maybe flirt with him, or maybe go on a date with him. The woman thinks they're just having fun. Then, she realizes that he's expecting sex. And that he might think she's been angling for it, because that's what's on his mind. And she realizes her behavior could be classified as leading him on- when all she was doing was being friendly- because that's all most guy's need. So, she goes along with it, because she feels guilty for 'promising' something she never intended. Because no one wants to be called a cocktease.

Date: 2009-06-19 01:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] madfedor.livejournal.com
There's nothing in this post that doesn't bear repeating ad infinitum. "This has been covered", while true, is not by itself any kind of rational response to it.

I have three children. I didn't stop with the first one in teaching safety things like "don't touch" an object, etc. because "that covered it."

Respectfully, I see a strong trend (not just here) of people who are personally tired of discussing this (and other!) topic, and my respectful reply to their complaints is simple: see the topic, walk away. We don't need your complaint. There's always another woman out there who needs to see it or hear it.

Date: 2009-06-21 03:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zero2aries.livejournal.com
Don't judge where you have no knowledge Ms (or Mr) Anonymous. You have no fucking idea what this blogger may or may not have gone through.

And read the damn' post properly instead of leaping to conclusions about what it says.

Oh yeah - and have the courage to back your comments by signing your name!!

Re: Here via your link

Date: 2009-06-21 03:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zero2aries.livejournal.com
I think you might have slightly missed the point.

The OP was not disputing any of the points you addressed.

Merely saying that women should also look out for other women.

And just because a woman doesn't say "I would never rape" doesn't mean she would never rape. Women can and do rape. Not in numbers that even come close to those of men - but they do. (And I'm talking rape - not just sex you don't want but consent to anyway).

Re: Here via your link

Date: 2009-06-22 02:59 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] smallcaps.livejournal.com
I know that women rape. I know that women also contribute to the male rape culture. It's just that the OP said she was pissed off that Cereta's post addressed men rather than men-and-women, and I was pointing out that it addressed men because women are already addressed all the time. There was a very specific, very pertinent reason it addressed men, and the fact that people are getting pissed off about it disturbs me somewhat.

The rest of this post has good points, and I'm not disputing them. It's the fact that it was made in reaction to a call to men, that a call to men "pissed off" the OP, that I wanted to address.

Re: Here via your link

Date: 2009-06-22 11:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] stephiny.livejournal.com
Sorry I've taken so long to comment

The issue I have with that post is that it is directed only at men and pretty much just lists what they should do and where they are at fault. A lot of her points should apply equally to men and women but that isn't mentioned anywhere.

I feel that reading things like that can contribite to two problems. It can lead to men feeling like they are expected to do things that they think everyone should be doing, and women to feel that it is up to men to solve the problem. It all just feeds in to the existing 'us v them' mentality.

I would honestly be less pissed off if the post was a load of crap. It's a good post and lots of people will see it and see that it is missing any mention of women and men working together to solve the problem, or calling on women to look out for each other

Date: 2009-06-22 12:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] stephiny.livejournal.com
Discouraging the perpetrators. That's a difficult thing. There are a lot of evil bastards out there who are never going to change. They are the ones who seem the most normal and respectable and no one has a clue what they are really like.

The ones that can be discouraged are drunken errors of judgement, or when peer pressure is involved.

Guys need to step up, and girls do too. There seems to be an expectation of it being a one way thing. Women need to look out for each other too, and women need to be somewhat appreciative of men trying to help out (at least to the point of not throwing a drink in their face - I think I read that in one of the comments on Cereta's post, though it may have been somewhere else).

Every time I've seen something telling men what they can do to help prevent rape I have never seen anything listing what most women do every day as a matter of course. That can only feed in to the perception of everything being one way as I'm sure it won't occur to some guys to research further and they will be left thinking that they are the only ones expected to do anything

Sorry I've taken so long to respond

Date: 2009-06-22 12:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] stephiny.livejournal.com
Thank you

Date: 2009-06-22 12:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lizkayl.livejournal.com
I think the point of this post is, women are already taught what they can do to prevent rape- they may not do it, but we're told and taught what will make us safer. Men are, for the most part, not taught how to.

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